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  1. #21
    Senior Member ziddy's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frangible @ Sep 24 2008, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think anyone can say definitively. At the higher end, here's a study on meth abuse:



    Note you're likely still going to have whatever symptoms you took the drug for in the first place afterwards.</div>
    Yeah I'm not looking for the fucking tooth fairy here. Just dropping the bullshit and getting to the point - I'll make my own thread when I have the energy to do so. Sertraline withdrawal as well (basically 100mg/day for a couple months, a few weeks with other meds, then 100mg/day for a month, 150mg/day for a month, 100mg/day for 1 day, then 0mg/day) is having me batshit insane and I'd be perfectly glad to drop all drugs (except perhaps psychedelics for introspective/spiritual purposes) if I'D JUST STOP FEELING LIKE SHIT!



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Coordinate this w/ your doctor and work it out with him, that way you won't have to worry about him thinking you're doing drug-seeking behavior when you're titrating your dose up on your own.</div>
    From personal experience here, it is just going to depend on the doctor. Some doctors have a mindset of, "I am doctor you are patient, you tell me what is wrong i fix it. if it not work you tell me and i change things. but you pay me big money for me to tell you what is wrong, you want help with your problems you shut up and do what i tell you to." With someone like that you aren't going to get SHIT but what they want to give you. Said Dr. Rx'd me:

    -aripiprazole (Abilify) 10mg qd
    -lisdexamfetamine dimesylate (Vyvanse) 70mg qam
    -fluvoxamine (Luvox CR) 150mg qd
    -EKG

    I am not kidding you, this guy wrote "EKG" on a prescription and handed it to me. All of the drugs he prescribed were brand only when plenty of generic options exist - plenty of anticonvulsants, lithium, valproate, whatever for mood stabiliser; he claimed Adderall was giving me "heart problems" and that I would do better with Vyvanse (this guy had a Vyvanse poster the size of a small child on the wall in his waiting room, pens, promo items lying around everywhere, I saw this a mile coming); generic fluvoxamine has been available for DECADES and Luvox CR is like...less than a year old. Why the FUCK did he Rx that shit? I don't know, but point being, he would NOT have worked with me with anything, so I never went to see him again.

    Find a doctor that's worth a shit before you give up hope.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member ziddy's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krazyj @ Sep 25 2008, 08:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Try to find out the times after dosing this occurs.

    For the record, I also get a bit irritable on Vyvanse sometimes. I'm ashamed to admit I can tend to be kind of ugly on the inside (something I'm working on) and I think Vyvanse doesn't hold that back like other medicines can.</div>
    Your post doesn't make any sense. Chemically there is no difference between Vyvanse and Dextrostat, at least after that fucking peptide bond is cleaved. True, different phamacokinetics...but really, it's the same fucking molecule.
    http://abolitionist-society.com
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  3. #23
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ziddy @ Sep 26 2008, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your post doesn't make any sense. Chemically there is no difference between Vyvanse and Dextrostat, at least after that fucking peptide bond is cleaved. True, different phamacokinetics...but really, it's the same fucking molecule.</div>

    I never claimed that? Vyvanse = Dexedrine + Lysine...

  4. #24
    Senior Member Jay Black's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ziddy @ Sep 26 2008, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your post doesn't make any sense. Chemically there is no difference between Vyvanse and Dextrostat, at least after that fucking peptide bond is cleaved. True, different phamacokinetics...but really, it's the same fucking molecule.</div>
    Holy smokes dude, you're friggin' trippin'.
    Prophet of the Day of Rockening...The Arockalypse!

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frangible @ Sep 2 2009, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If the music itself doesn't elevate your testosterone levels, you clearly do not have a Jay Black approved band.</div>

  5. #25
    Senior Member nelix's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jay Black @ Sep 27 2008, 08:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Holy smokes dude, you're friggin' trippin'.</div>
    I dunno, I think he has a point or are we saying that that lysine actually does something besides slow uptake? Or possibly that the slower uptake would make one angry? I mean me, if I take no/a little/a lot of amphetamine I don't feel angry.


  6. #26
    Senior Member Jay Black's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nelix @ Sep 27 2008, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I dunno, I think he has a point or are we saying that that lysine actually does something besides slow uptake? Or possibly that the slower uptake would make one angry? I mean me, if I take no/a little/a lot of amphetamine I don't feel angry.</div>
    I meant he reacted quite officious to something Krazyj didn't even say.
    Prophet of the Day of Rockening...The Arockalypse!

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frangible @ Sep 2 2009, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If the music itself doesn't elevate your testosterone levels, you clearly do not have a Jay Black approved band.</div>

  7. #27
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jay Black @ Sep 27 2008, 09:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I meant he reacted quite officious to something Krazyj didn't even say.</div>


    He's on Luvox. The med that the one of the Columbine shooters was on when they did the deed. Ya rly.

    I've been on Luvox. The best way to describe that drug is "ruthless ambition." Does amazing things for OCD and motivation. Got me out of my rut. But..... I heard voices. REEEELY creepy shit.

    Ziddy, do what your doc tells you to, but Luvox + Vyvanse + SSRI withdrawal = psycho anger machine. I know this from experience. As a message of comfort, Zid, it IS just the meds, you're not going crazy....

    And for the love of God take your Abilify. It'll bring some sanity back to that nightmarish combination.

    <div align='left'><span style="font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium"><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">RIP Gaines Adams:</span>
    </span></span></span><blockquote><span style="font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%">I'll never forget lowering my head and shoulder-pads and running full-speed into a head-on collision with you, only to be stopped dead in my tracks, with ears ringing, feeling slightly disoriented, like I had run into a brick wall. You, however, seemed only to react as one would to a sudden gust of wind, and continued on unabated.

    I'll also never forget the first thing you said to me. To which I responded:

    "No, Gaines, I did NOT call you a nigga."

    Rest in peace, man.</span></span> </blockquote><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%">

    "C
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    Individual agents lose their effectiveness on the whole and to get their effectiveness up the central problem is that they go after a target too far, beyond certain homeostatic parameters. This then results in compensatory mechanisms and the drug often plataeus, or it just produces side-effects which are most probably the compensatory mechanisms. The solution will always be to go after several targets simulateneously, but less aggressively. Without research into combinatorial treatments, pharmacy hits 'the wall' and few new effective and proffitable drugs will ever be created."
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  8. #28
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krazyj @ Sep 24 2008, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>After searching around the forums, I only found little bits of useful information regarding amphetamine tolerance/sensitization/withdrawal. I figured we could reap the most information on this topic by creating one thread for it and getting the ball rolling. With that...


    When does tolerance begin? 2 weeks? 1 month? A Year?
    When does sensitization begin? 2 weeks? 1 month? A Year?

    Which effects does tolerance develop to?
    Which effects does sensitization develop to?

    Does tolerance continue to build over time or is it reached and stays?
    Does sensitization continue to build over time or is it reached and stays?

    What are ways to combat tolerance? Extended time off? Day off/week? Supplements?

    How long is withdrawal?

    Any other pertinent information for starting/trialing amphetamine or using amphetamine as a sustained treatment?


    Let's hear it.</div>

    Use at - 3-4 days on, followed by 1-2 days off can maintain ~90%-95% of amphetamine "clinical effects"...

    Monitored use of exogenous testosterone can allow men to decrease their dose/day of psychostim's such as Adderall, Vyvanse, Dexedrine, and methylphenidate.

    Tyrosine, Vitamins B-6, B-12, C, NADH, TMG/SAMe, magnesium, grape-seed extract/pycnogenol, zinc, DLPA, Carnosine, 5-HTP, DHA/EFA's, ALCAR, Co-Q-10, and DMAE, Bacopa etc...--> ALL have been shown to prevent/lessen amphetamine tolerance and also improve: attention/vigilance, motivation/focus, verbal fluency, and visual/listening skills in those with and w/o ADHD.

    These supplements/substances have allowed myself/and others to greatly decrease the dose per day for prescription "psychostimulants" - commonly used to treat ADHD...
    ".. I imagine him (Ergoman) as either some neo monk who has such a perfect balance with his body that he notices even the slightest difference from something..."..."Or he's a sup company rep with the worst computer skills I've ever seen... maybe he's playing dumb to trick us..."-Supnut

  9. #29
    Senior Member Darksanity's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ergomanisback @ Sep 28 2008, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Tyrosine, Vitamins B-6, B-12, C, NADH, TMG/SAMe, magnesium, grape-seed extract/pycnogenol, zinc, DLPA, Carnosine, 5-HTP, DHA/EFA's, ALCAR, Co-Q-10, and DMAE, Bacopa etc...--> ALL have been shown to prevent/lessen amphetamine tolerance and also improve: attention/vigilance, motivation/focus, verbal fluency, and visual/listening skills in those with and w/o ADHD.</div>
    Really? Well personally, bacopa (and also ashwagandha and gingko biloba) actually COUNTER-ACTED the effects of amphetamine... They're only good for relaxing in late evening.

    And as for l-tyrosine, ime, it seemed to increase only the less desirable effects of amphetamine (peripheral stimulation, anorexic effects, etc.).

    5-HTP with amphetamine gave me weird awkward stereotypical hyperfocus effect..

  10. #30
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    what are the sterotypical hyperofocus effects.

  11. #31
    Member Oversoul711's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ergomanisback @ Sep 28 2008, 06:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Use at - 3-4 days on, followed by 1-2 days off can maintain ~90%-95% of amphetamine "clinical effects"...</div>

    Yeah, maybe after consistent use/dosing of 18-24 months in conjunction with disciplined behavior modification. That is only referring to ADHD, too.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Monitored use of exogenous testosterone can allow men to decrease their dose/day of psychostim's such as Adderall, Vyvanse, Dexedrine, and methylphenidate.</div>

    Most people I know and all the anecdotal reports I've read state that test use doesn't have a real, beneficial effect in helping ADHD. If anything, it has made it worse.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Tyrosine, Vitamins B-6, B-12, C, NADH, TMG/SAMe, magnesium, grape-seed extract/pycnogenol, zinc, DLPA, Carnosine, 5-HTP, DHA/EFA's, ALCAR, Co-Q-10, and DMAE, Bacopa etc...--> ALL have been shown to prevent/lessen amphetamine tolerance and also improve: attention/vigilance, motivation/focus, verbal fluency, and visual/listening skills in those with and w/o ADHD.</div>

    Saying all of these do both is a bit of a stretch. In few individuals/small groups yes, but definitely not the majority.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>These supplements/substances have allowed myself/and others to greatly decrease the dose per day for prescription "psychostimulants" - commonly used to treat ADHD...</div>

    Okay, there you go - they worked great for you, but like I just said the majority they will not.
    <span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium">A concept is about how to look at the earth from the moon without ever getting there.
    The moon is about love & Werewolves, also Poe. Poe is about looking at the moon from the
    or else the graveyard...</span></span>

  12. #32
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (simpllyhuge @ Sep 28 2008, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>what are the sterotypical hyperofocus effects.</div>
    Superb attentional focus. Usually on the wrong things. Loss of choice; inability to stop doing something.
    For example, churning out brilliant replies to 20 M&M posts at work when you are about to get your ass fired (or "sacked", for you Brits) because you aren't finishing a report due in 1 hour.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Gahan's Avatar
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    It is likely that a large amount of 'tolerance' and 'withdrawal' that people experience from amphetamine (as well as negative effects in general) have nothing to do with the direct neurochemical actions of the drug at all. Rather, through time the indirect effects of repeated dosing accumulate. Magnesium deficiency, DHA store depletion in the brain, glycogen store depletion in the brain, increased stress load, reduced antioxidant levels, inadequate food and water intake...

    Add poor sleep, poor stress coping, poor diet or poor exercise habits to the above, you get inflammation, impaired cognitive function etc. plus even less ability to deal with stress. So now you take more stims, and the problem worsens. When you stop taking stimulants, there is no longer anything to mask the damage.

    I'm not trying to discount the neural mechanisms here, I'm just pointing out NMDA receptors and DA levels aren't the end-all.

    Take more magnesium. Modern diets are too low, and amphetamines, stress, alcohol consumption, and exercise all deplete your levels. Yeah, so everyone in this forum is fucked in this regard.

    Fish Oil. Many many reasons why you should already have it, but amps can deplete DHA stores in the brain. Not good. Also, you will definitely need more anti-oxidants as well, non-acidic Vit C is a staple and godsend.

    Learn 'the fine art of eating on stims' as fastandbulbous said, and add drinking water. I've been taking amphetamines for over six months, and I still have to watch this carefully. This doesn't just mean eating well and enough, it means in a manner that keeps your blood glucose levels adequate. Exercise...yada yada.

    Enough has been said about stress/sleep already in these forums to write books, but if you aren't already paying attention to this then do so now or suffer the dire fucking consequences of your stupidity (this is a general statement btw).

    DHEA and NAC are awesome adjuncts to amps as well. DHEA up to 150mg/day if you are under a lot of stress, and start feeling like you are getting 'sucked dry'. It patches that shit right up.
    Amor Fati

    God, I murdered a lot of innocent animals in the name of literature- Robert Ruark

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  14. #34
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
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    Does anyone know what would cause a growing anxiety at the beginning of a dosing regimen of amphetamine?

    I felt good the first few days (moreso good than euphoric). Now, day 5, I feel mildly anxious before dosing and know I'd feel very anxious after dosing.

    Why would it grow? What is being depleted that I'd start getting anxiety.


    I'm only taking 20mg Vyvanse, too. Starting dose is 30mg and 20mg is the lowest mfg'd dose.

  15. #35
    Senior Member krazyj's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gahan @ Sep 28 2008, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Take more magnesium. Modern diets are too low, and amphetamines, stress, alcohol consumption, and exercise all deplete your levels. Yeah, so everyone in this forum is fucked in this regard.</div>

    Gahan, Magnesium always makes me blunted, tired, and mentally foggy. If I just order a bottle of Magnesium caps and take standard dosages (1 of whatever the cap is... not megadosing here), I always get this effect. Not to mention it makes me sleepy.

    I can only imagine what it would do to my sleep. Doesnt feel very healthy. Have you noticed any of this?

  16. #36
    Senior Member Gahan's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krazyj @ Sep 29 2008, 05:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Does anyone know what would cause a growing anxiety at the beginning of a dosing regimen of amphetamine?

    I felt good the first few days (moreso good than euphoric). Now, day 5, I feel mildly anxious before dosing and know I'd feel very anxious after dosing.

    Why would it grow? What is being depleted that I'd start getting anxiety.


    I'm only taking 20mg Vyvanse, too. Starting dose is 30mg and 20mg is the lowest mfg'd dose.</div>

    Magnesium is likely. If it makes you feel tired/blunted etc., then just take it with the last meal of the day. Also, don't bother with oxide or carbonate, Magnesium citrate is one of the best forms, and you can get it in liquid at any drugstore. Just watch dosing or you'll get the shits. (with food, not oxide, try to split the doses) Mag citrate has the highest bioav, at like 40% (according to wiki), so aim for like 400-800mg to supplement what you get from your diet.

    Like I said, sweating, exercise, stress, and amphetamines all cause you to need more Mg. The DRI for someone who doesn't have these factors involved is 400mg, which equals out to 2.5 cups of cooked spinach, or 20 tablespoons of peanut butter, or 10 glasses of milk, or 3-4 cups of black beans, or 2 cups of oat bran. These are some of the foods in our diets highest in Mg, so the likelihood you don't have enough = very.
    Amor Fati

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    The dawn speeds a man on his journey, and speeds him too in his work. - Hesiod


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    Instead of magnesium, you guys could try ketamine or phencyclidine! Those are much more potent NMDA antagonists. On the legal side of things, you can try taking 30-60mg dextromethorphan and, like, 2g l-citrulline with your amp. The DXM is an NMDA antagonist, and so is nitrous oxide, levels of which l-citrulline increases.

    How about mucuna pruriens extract? Forget l-tyrosine and DLPA; bypass that rate-limiting step with l-dopa. It increases HGH levels too! You don't have to be a skinny twerp addicted to speed; you can be big dude addicted to speed. Just remember to cycle use! Also, uh, work-out before dosing.

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (how am i not myself? @ Sep 29 2008, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How about mucuna pruriens extract? ... Just remember to cycle use! Also, uh, work-out before dosing.</div>Has anyone here tried mucuna for amp issues? For sleep enhancement?

    Please expand on why you suggest doing a work-out before dosing (implying a warning to not workout after dosing). Maybe it's obvious to everyone else but not to me. PLZ EXPLN THX.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Gahan's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (how am i not myself? @ Sep 29 2008, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Instead of magnesium, you guys could try ketamine or phencyclidine! Those are much more potent NMDA antagonists. On the legal side of things, you can try taking 30-60mg dextromethorphan and, like, 2g l-citrulline with your amp. The DXM is an NMDA antagonist, and so is nitrous oxide, levels of which l-citrulline increases.

    How about mucuna pruriens extract? Forget l-tyrosine and DLPA; bypass that rate-limiting step with l-dopa. It increases HGH levels too! You don't have to be a skinny twerp addicted to speed; you can be big dude addicted to speed. Just remember to cycle use! Also, uh, work-out before dosing.</div>

    How many vital processes are DXM, PCP or Ketamine involved in?
    Amor Fati

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    The dawn speeds a man on his journey, and speeds him too in his work. - Hesiod


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    yeah I thhouhgt about DXM...intresting angle no doubt. easily obaibable. I could not gather its specific mechanism of action though does it do othe things beside NMDA?
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