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  1. #161
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    I have celiac, and when I get "glutened" I get soft tissue joint pain like this for a few days. I know you said you'd ruled out autoimmune stuff, but at the risk of bringing up something that might be over-obvious, have you had a celiac test?

    Edit: I see that it was brought up earlier in the thread. Did you get the test?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Dubio View Post
    How can MRSA infect vital organs without a potent immunogenic response? Is there any evidence for chronic MRSA infection of this sort?

    Forgive me, this just sounds pretty hard to believe, though I do appreciate the idea.
    It's not the MRSA / Staphylococcus itself, but the effects of the various toxins these bacteria synthesize that may conceivably damage organs and nerves, if the toxins leave the site of infection.

    There is evidence that another Staphylococcus toxin, namely alpha toxin (aka: alpha hemolysin), is involved with fibromyalgia / chronic fatigue syndrome, in that treatment with staphylococcus toxoid vaccine led to significant improvement in patients with FM and CFS. A toxoid vaccine works by introducing a bacterial toxin into the body, in order to boost the antibody response against that bacterial toxin.

    The fact that staphylococcus toxoid vaccine — which boosts the immune response specifically to alpha toxin — works for fibromyalgia/CFS suggests that Staphylococcus alpha toxin does play a role in these diseases in some patients. The stronger immune response elicited by the vaccine presumably reduces the amount of alpha toxin, leading to an improvement in symptoms.

    As to where this Staphylococcus / MRSA infection is located, it may be that the toxins synthesized by Staphylococcus aureus or MRSA bacteria in the gut or kidneys escape into the blood, causing damage further afield, even though the infection in confined to the gut or kidneys. Possibly these toxins escape if someone has leaky gut syndrome (though I am not sure if bacterial toxins can pass through a leaky gut; though many bacterial toxins are certainly known to cause or exacerbate leaky gut).

    7% of the population have Staphylococcus aureus in their gut, and 0.8% of the population have an infection of methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus, so these bacteria are not uncommon as chronic low level infections in the body.

    Staphylococcus aureus is also the most frequent pathogen isolated in patients with sphenoid sinus infection. So this is another place where it resides. And Staphylococcus aureus can and does infect the central nervous system.

    Note that Staphylococcus aureus produces a number of toxins, including alpha toxin and beta toxin. Panton-Valentine leukocidin toxin (PVL) is produced by most MRSA strains.

    Also of interest:

    Injury of myelin sheaths in isolated rabbit vagus nerves by α-toxin of Staphylococcus aureus
    MRSA co-infection increases risk of flu-related mortality among children
    I am 32 yrs old. I had mrsa in my nose about 4 to 5 months. I was just diagnosed with low testosterone and extremely low hormones (LH and FSH).

  3. #163
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    Just happened to read this:

    "our data indicate that the pituitary gland is susceptible to CD8 autoimmunity following an inflammatory insult such as a viral infection"

    Factors affecting the susceptibility of the mouse... [Immunology. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

  4. Likes Chip Douglas liked this post
  5. #164
    Senior Member adreno's Avatar
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    TGF-beta1 is a cytokine involved in promoting fibrosis. It is elevated from ROS and infections like herpes. It seems that curcumin can actually enhance expression of TGF-beta1. Maybe this is why it never seemed to help me, and even seemed to exacerbate my fibrosis symptoms at times:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12515914

    Like I have said before, Holy Basil has a wonderful feeling to it. It turns out that Holy Basil contains ursolic acid, which is an inhibitor of TGF-beta1. Also, proteolytic enzymes can decrease excessive TGF-beta1 levels:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11561866

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

  6. #165
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    ARB's reduce TGF-beta and fibrosis as well, but unfortunately can exaggerate POTS and/or orthostatic hypotension.

  7. #166
    Senior Member adreno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunkOdyssey View Post
    ARB's reduce TGF-beta and fibrosis as well, but unfortunately can exaggerate POTS and/or orthostatic hypotension.
    They are possibly helpful for low-flow (vasoconstricted) POTS. I seem to have the high-flow (post-viral, neuropathic), though.

  8. #167
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    I just came across this thread while doing a google search for allover soft tissue pain. I hope someone is still following the thread and maybe got some answers? It appears the original poster may have been banned.
    I have a history of excessive (to some) exercise, including some pretty intense self defense stuff. I have herniated discs in my neck and lumbar spine, and numerous supposedly exercise related aches and pains. However, the past couple years I've developed tendonitis in more body parts than I can recall, but the worst have been shoulders, elbows, and now feet/lower calves. It seems wheat/gluten make it worse, so I've tried to stay away from gluten foods (a bitch! But it also causes me acne, so more reason to let it go). I had a flare up of all over pain around December- it didn't make sense since I was eating pretty good and the pains I had did not seem to correlate with the exercises I was doing.
    I realized one day in January or February it had let up, though my shoulder was still bad. The past week or so, I've had another flare up, to the point I'm starting to freak out- it seems every body part that has ever caused me problems is affected- both shoulders, neck, hand, feet and even my knee, which hasn't bothered me in months. I was supposed to get arthroscopic surgery on it last fall, but declined when the pain miraculously diminished after quitting wheat (again) for a couple weeks, as well as krav maga. I could even run without much issue. Yet suddenly it hurts along with everything else.

    I saw a rheumatologist some months ago, she said I was negative for fibromyalgia as well as some other auto-immune diseases (she did blood tests). Further, I don't show typical signs of inflammation. I have done more PT over the past 7 years than anybody should have to do. Some helped, but much of it did not.
    I feel like I'm losing my mind. I am used to being very, very active, and I get very depressed when I am unable to exercise alot. I don't know what to do!

    Anybody find any answers yet?!

  9. #168
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    Argh,

    I feel you, I have been in that same spot. It may help you if you keep in the front of your mind that all pain is an output of the Brain. It is Defense rather than Defect of the nervous system that you are experiencing. The brain is going to turn up or turn down any of those sensory signals coming into it, and even make shit up just to be on the safe side in order to protect itself(you). Every second, of every minute, of every day that we are in existence the brain is taking in info(most of which is below our concious knowledge/control) and processing it. It sounds like you have a bit central sensitizationof your nervous system going on. When that happens you want to do your best to calm the mind down, because the evolutionary earlier lizard parts can get worked up and learn to STAY on high alert. I noticed a couple of things in your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by argh View Post
    I have a history of excessive (to some) exercise, including some pretty intense self defense stuff. The past week or so, I've had another flare up, to the point I'm starting to freak out- it seems every body part that has ever caused me problems is affected- both shoulders, neck, hand, feet and even my knee, which hasn't bothered me in months. I was supposed to get arthroscopic surgery on it last fall, but declined when the pain miraculously diminished after quitting wheat (again) for a couple weeks, as well as krav maga. I could even run without much issue. Yet suddenly it hurts along with everything else.
    I saw a rheumatologist some months ago, she said I was negative for fibromyalgia as well as some other auto-immune diseases (she did blood tests). Further, I don't show typical signs of inflammation. I have done more PT over the past 7 years than anybody should have to do. Some helped, but much of it did not.
    I feel like I'm losing my mind. I am used to being very, very active, and I get very depressed when I am unable to exercise alot
    . I don't know what to do!
    The pattern of on/off pain and the clean blood work should be encouraging signs for you. Again, it is showing you that your pain is a defensive output, rather than a physical defect that needs to be fixed by anybody. Eating a clean diet will help reduce threat signals to the brain. Exercise wise try and take it easy & get movement in the context of play/fun activities, and look into doing Feldenkrais/Hanna somatic movements . You want to give your brain novel-pain free ways to move so it learns that moving is an ok thing to do.The standard PT model is behind the curve when it comes to pain. They most times try to strengthen or stretch the pain away, which increases the threat level to the brain. Same is true with rough deep tissue massage, vigorous foam rolling & serious exercise. These may feel good initially due to endorphin release and diffuse noxious inhibitory control, but like crack or alcohol addiction they aren't going to make you feel good in the long run. It hard to slow yourself down a bit and let the mind take a break, but it WILL help you to feel better. Better Movementis an awesome blog that helped me get out of chronic pain after years of abuse from hockey, football, surfing etc...He explains things in a reader friendly way. Hope you feel better.

  10. #169
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    Thanks for the reply.

    Your statement

    "It sounds like you have a bit central sensitization of your nervous system going on. When that happens you want to do your best to calm the mind down, because the evolutionary earlier lizard parts can get worked up and learn to STAY on high alert."

    ...is likely right on the mark. In the past month I've seen another rheumatologist, another ortho doc and done a sh*t ton of research. I have known for years that I'm very sensitive to many things that others don't seem to notice- noise, smells, touch- and considered the possibility that I have a sensory processing disorder. However, it didn't really match what I experience. Then a friend of mine gave me some info she found on the "Highly Sensitive Person" trait, and it absolutely describes me. It also correlates with what the most recent rheumatologist and ortho docs said: some people seem to be more sensitive and experience pain in response to injuries that many people would not even notice. I was very grateful for both these Drs, as they did not dismiss my pain as either from overuse or a mental issue, but rather acknowledge the pain is real, but seems out of proportion to the actual structural problems.

    This "HSP" thing has been something of a revelation and a relief. I'm not alone! AND to some degree, it means that, though I do feel this pain, I do not have to worry that I'm going to rupture a tendon or otherwise permanently damage myself if I continue to exercise (contrary to what some ortho and PT professionals told me). I am now working on dealing with the sensitivity issue, but just knowing that my pain is not necessarily an indicator of a severe deterioration has provided some peace of mind.

    Now if I could just sleep.....:P

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