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  1. #41
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Dec 11 2008, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, I think he's saying that replacing the 3bHSD will solve all of the above. I could be wrong though.</div>

    but the study I posted said that metformin doesn't inhibit 3beta-hsd so there's no need to worry about it.

  2. #42
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eclypz @ Dec 11 2008, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>but the study I posted said that metformin doesn't inhibit 3beta-hsd so there's no need to worry about it.</div>


    yes, you have to worry about it.
    AICAR for example decrease 3beta hsd too.


    i can post more recent studies corroborating the same.



    <span style="color:#C0C0C0">.</span>

  3. #43
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oswaldosalcedo @ Dec 11 2008, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>yes, you have to worry about it.
    AICAR for example decrease 3beta hsd too.


    i can post more recent studies corroborating the same.



    <span style="color:#C0C0C0">.</span></div>

    and the only way to increase the lost 3beta HSD is to take cortisol? Oy vey!!!

  4. #44
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oswaldosalcedo @ Dec 11 2008, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>..........Glucocorticoid treatment inhibited AMPK activity in rat adipose tissue and heart, while stimulating it in the liver and hypothalamus. Similar data were observed in vitro in the primary adipose and hypothalamic cells and in the liver cell line. Metformin, a known AMPK regulator, prevented the corticosteroid-induced effects on AMPK in human adipocytes and rat hypothalamic neurons......................</div>


    Oswaldo, would this be significant enough to delete any advantages provided by metaformin via AMPK? Or do you interpret this as saying that metaformin and corticosteroids nullify each other's worst side effects?

  5. #45
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Dec 11 2008, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oswaldo, would this be significant enough to delete any advantages provided by metaformin via AMPK? Or do you interpret this as saying that metaformin and corticosteroids nullify each other's worst side effects?</div>

    i am thinking about it (i wiil like a nullifyng actions).

    but beyond of it too, because high glucose levels lead to substantial reductions in the amounts of 3beta HSD, p450scc, p450 aromatase and StAR proteins for example, but low glucose levels activate AMPK too.


    <span style="color:#C0C0C0">.</span>

  6. #46
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eclypz @ Dec 10 2008, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have found that 250mg once daily still works very well to balance blood sugar without interupting my testosterone production.</div>

    Are you still doing this and if so,still seeing positive effects on appetite,mood and body comp?

    I just rec'd a bunch of goodies today,fibrates,metformin,baclofen and I feel like a kid in a candy store [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wub.gif[/img] I just threw back 250mg metformin with a large bowl of oatmeal and will probably keep it to 250mg ED when I'm not on (usage of current 1-T Tren + clomid should allow for MOAR of metformin like 750-1000mg ED),just thought 250 was a good starting dosage to assess sides and what not.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oswaldosalcedo @ Dec 11 2008, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>yes, you have to worry about it.
    AICAR for example decrease 3beta hsd too.


    i can post more recent studies corroborating the same.



    <span style="color:#C0C0C0">.</span></div>

    I haven't read all of the relevant abstracts yet but if AICAR decreases beta hsd too,shouldn't this be a good thing for metformin,considering how sweet AICAR is.



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eclypz @ Dec 11 2008, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>and the only way to increase the lost 3beta HSD is to take cortisol? Oy vey!!!</div>

    Fuck,so metformin should not be taken while on supps that lower cortisol (1-T Tren,which has a tren derivitive that lowers cortisol) or 7-keto etc.?


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oswaldosalcedo @ Dec 15 2008, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>i am thinking about it (i wiil like a nullifyng actions).

    but beyond of it too, because high glucose levels lead to substantial reductions in the amounts of 3beta HSD, p450scc, p450 aromatase and StAR proteins for example, but low glucose levels activate AMPK too.


    <span style="color:#C0C0C0">.</span></div>

    Sorry,are you saying that we should use metformin along with cortisteroids?

    And by doing so,the usage of both metformin and cortisteroids together cancels out the undesirable side effects?

    I have to wonder if there is an alternative to using cortisteroids,Pubmed time indeed for me.
    Pile of data cannot be equated to the irrefutable truth, no more than a mountain of shit can be scaled to bring one closer to enlightenment.

    No bro-science at Purus because we heart Pubmed and all its peer reviewed studies just too damn much to cheat you with overblown hype.

  7. #47
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    Gemfibrozil is a cortisol agonist,any thoughts on how this would work in place of a cortisteroid?




    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1994 Dec;51(5-6):307-13.Links
    Gemfibrozil treatment is associated with elevated adrenal androgen, androstanediol glucuronide and cortisol levels in dyslipidemic men.
    Hautanen A, Mänttäri M, Manninen V, Adlercreutz H.

    Department of Clinical Chemistry, University of Helsinki, Finland.

    We have investigated the role of steroid hormones as coronary risk factors in the Helsinki Heart Study population of dyslipidemic middle-aged men. We compare here the effects of gemfibrozil and placebo on the serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), its sulfate (DHEAS), their metabolite androstanediol glucuronide (3 alpha-AdiolG), androstenedione, cortisol, testosterone, and sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG) in non-smokers. We also examined the associations between steroid and lipoprotein levels in both treatment groups. Compared with placebo gemfibrozil treatment was associated with significant elevations of the mean levels of DHEA 10.2 vs 8.0 nmol/l; P < 0.005, of DHEAS 8.0 vs 5.8 mumol/l; P < 0.001, of 3 alpha AdiolG 18.3 vs 8.4 nmol/l; P < 0.001, of androstenedione 5.7 vs 5.1 nmol/l; P < 0.02, and of cortisol 426 vs 358 nmol/l; P < 0.001. The mean SHBG levels decreased from 46.4 to 41.7 nmol/l; P = 0.03 with gemfibrozil treatment. No difference was found in testosterone levels 17.7 vs 18.8 nmol/l; P = 0.11, or the ratio of testosterone/SHBG 0.45 vs 0.43; P = 0.23. Positive correlations were found between high density lipoprotein-cholesterol and DHEAS (r = 0.267; P < 0.01) and DHEA (r = 0.282; P < 0.01) levels and negative correlations between low density lipoprotein-cholesterol and 3 alpha-AdiolG (r = -0.400; P < 0.001) and cortisol (r = -0.281; P < 0.01) levels in the gemfibrozil group. Our results indicate that gemfibrozil treatment increases the production and turnover of adrenal androgens and cortisol, and suggest that activation of the adrenocortical function and increased metabolism of androgens are related to the improved lipoprotein pattern during gemfibrozil treatment.

    PMID: 7826893


    Another one on cortisol,meh.

    Effects of gemfibrozil treatment on serum levels of androstanediol glucuronide and adrenal androgens.
    Hautanen A, Mänttäri M, Manninen V, Frick MH, Adlercreutz H.

    First Department of Medicine, University of Helsinki, Meilahti Hospital, Finland.

    We have prospectively investigated the role of adrenal cortical androgens as a risk factor for coronary heart disease in the Helsinki Heart Study population. Simultaneously we studied the effects of gemfibrozil treatment on the serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), its sulfate (DHEAS), and their metabolite androstanediol glucuronide (3 alpha AdiolG) with those of placebo. Gemfibrozil (n = 133) vs placebo (n = 159) treatment was associated with significant elevation of mean (SD) DHEAS (mumol/l) 8.35 (5.31) vs 6.98 (3.85); P less than 0.02, and of 3 alpha AdiolG (nmol/l) 17.45 (7.57) vs 8.62 (3.56); P less than 0.001), and of almost significant elevation of DHEA (nmol/l) 10.12 (6.64) vs 8.78 (5.86); P less than 0.07). These new observations suggest that gemfibrozil treatment increases the production and turnover of DHEA and DHEAS and may in addition stimulate the 5 alpha-reduction of androgens.

    PMID: 1534991

    Pile of data cannot be equated to the irrefutable truth, no more than a mountain of shit can be scaled to bring one closer to enlightenment.

    No bro-science at Purus because we heart Pubmed and all its peer reviewed studies just too damn much to cheat you with overblown hype.

  8. #48
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    I just diagnosed myself with insulin resistance. Blood glucose reads 170 after eating food, fasting glucose reads 107. Cardio immediately cuts blood glucose down from 160 to 80. Anyway, I've been doing some research of my own, and I was glad to come across this board and find this was being discussed. I've read both metformin and pioglitazone both lower serum testosterone levels, however metformin seems to lower bodyweight, while pioglitazone increases adipogenesis (more bodyfat). It's thought to do this because it increases the insulin sensitivity of adipocytes. One of the good things about pioglitazone is that it increases the insulin sensitivity of skeletal muscle (GLUT-4) while metformin does not, but the lower testosterone is still an issue. The other diabetes drugs just cause your pancreas to release more insulin. I don't see any advantage to using those drugs. I have not done any research on injectable insulin, but it would probably be the most neutral way to fix the problem, and there may be a way to even use it advantageously to build muscle by timing it. I've been thinking that I can beat this just by having a good diet and exercising every day. But I wonder if I'm doing any harm to my body by allowing it to have high blood glucose at certain times, and I wonder if it's hampering my effort to lose weight (but would taking any drugs even fix that?)

  9. #49
    Product Rep Travis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oswaldosalcedo View Post
    QUOTE (eclypz @ Oct 15 2008, 05:20 PM) So is there any research out there that shows how specifically met reduces test in men?I'd think there'd be some research into this but it's tough to search for without getting just PCOS research.







    Saudi Med J. 2002 Aug;23(8):934-7.



    Effects of short term metformin administration on androgens in normal men.




    Shegem NS, Nasir AM, Jbour AK, Batieha AM, El-Khateeb MS, Ajlouni KM.



    National Center for Diabetes Endocrinology and Genetics, Jordan University Hospital, Amman, Jordan.



    OBJECTIVE: To study the effect of metformin on androgens in normal men. METHODS: A total of 12 healthy males volunteered to participate in the study. A blood sample was obtained from each of them and analyzed for the following: Testosterone (total and free), sex hormone binding globulin dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle stimulating hormone. In addition, each participant was subjected to a glucose tolerance test and his insulin level was measured. Metformin 850 mg twice daily for 2-weeks was given to each subject after which the above tests were repeated. A paired t-test was used to assess the statistical significance of any observed differences before and after metformin. RESULTS: After metformin administration, there was a significant reduction in serum level of total testosterone (p=0.0001), free testosterone (P=0.002), and 17 hydroxyprogesterone (p=0.0001). There was also a significant increase in serum level of sex hormone binding globulin (p=0.009) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (P=0.0008). Serum levels of luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone showed no significant changes. Similarly, there were no changes in fasting plasma glucose, fasting serum insulin, weight, or blood pressure. CONCLUSION: Metformin administration was associated with a reduction in total testosterone, free testosterone, and 17-hydroxyprogesterone and an increase in sex hormone binding globulin and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate in normal males.











    .






    Quoting the above as it looks like we have the opposite happening in a more recent study. I have not read this entire thread (but will). Does anyone have the FT to the below?



    Minerva Endocrinol. 2010 Sep;35(3):145-51.

    Effects of metformin and short-term lifestyle modification on the improvement of male hypogonadism associated with metabolic syndrome.

    Casulari LA, Caldas AD, Domingues Casulari Motta L, Lofrano-Porto A.



    Section of Endocrinology, University Hospital of Brasília, Faculty of Medicine, University of Brasília, Brasília, DF, Brazil - [email protected].





    Abstract

    AIM: The metabolic syndrome is associated with male hypogonadism, but specific studies about the mechanisms and treatment of the testosterone deficit are scanty. The aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of metformin combined with diet and physical activity on the testicular function of men with metabolic syndrome.



    METHODS: Thirty-five men (40.4±13.3 years old) with metabolic syndrome were evaluated before and after a four-month period of therapy with metformin 850 mg twice daily, associated with a balanced normocaloric diet and subtle improvement in physical activity. The subjects were divided in two groups: 21 males with normal plasma testosterone levels (≥300 ng/dL) and 14 males with low plasma testosterone levels (<300 ng/dL).



    RESULTS: There was a significant decrease in fasting insulin levels and HOMA-IR after treatment (P=0.01 and P=0.06), which was more pronounced in the hypogonadic group (for the effect of absence or presence of hypogonadism, P=0.04). The mean total and free testosterone levels increased significantly after treatment in both groups, similarly. The increase in FSH levels was more pronounced in the hypogonadic group than in the eugonadic group.



    CONCLUSION: In this series of males with metabolic syndrome, treatment with metformin associated with healthy dietary modifications and a mild physical activity increment resulted in significant improvement of insulin sensitivity and increase in total and free testosterone levels, regardless of the presence of hypogonadism.



    PMID: 20938417 [PubMed - in process]









  10. #50
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    Travis,did you ever find the FT to this study?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    Quoting the above as it looks like we have the opposite happening in a more recent study. I have not read this entire thread (but will). Does anyone have the FT to the below?
    Pile of data cannot be equated to the irrefutable truth, no more than a mountain of shit can be scaled to bring one closer to enlightenment.

    No bro-science at Purus because we heart Pubmed and all its peer reviewed studies just too damn much to cheat you with overblown hype.

  11. #51
    Product Rep Travis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Travis,did you ever find the FT to this study?
    I was not able to get it unfortunately.

  12. #52
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis View Post
    Quoting the above as it looks like we have the opposite happening in a more recent study. I have not read this entire thread (but will). Does anyone have the FT to the below?
    My strong guess is that the only thing opposing about the studies is one was done using healthy males, the other with males suffering from metabolic syndrome.

    Still though makes you wonder.

    I know from my own experiment with it that it gave me some problems in the sex drive department. Even made orgasms somewhat painful.

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    How do people feel about dosing? If you are athletic and already have high insulin sensitivity, is 1700mg/day too much?
    How about SR vs IR. Originally I had thought of it as a good supplement to take along with heavy car intake, but it seems like the half life and absorbtions time (6-17hrs and 2 hrs for IR) is too long for this. Given the note on Wikipedia about blood levels over time, it seems like the XR is completely unnecessary.

  14. #54
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    Metformin lowers blood sugar levels below what they would otherwise be after a meal (because it intervenes with the liver’s interaction with and production of glucose). Insulin is the body’s way of dealing with blood sugar. If blood sugar is lower, then insulin will be lower, and thus testosterone will be lower. Metformin decreases blood sugar, which lowers insulin, which lowers testosterone.

    References:
    http://paleoforwomen.com/metformin-and-pcos/
    https://www.diabetesdaily.com/forum/...rone-how-much/
    http://toptestosteroneboosters.org/l...k-of-diabetes/

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