User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 54
  1. #1
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    So I purchased some metformin the other day, just to give it a go because of my searches for ampk activators. After what I've read, glucophage is a really really awesome little drug. Three days into it my appetite vanished. And not like that appetite suppression you get from stimulants where you're just so zapped that you don't feel like eating. And not like the appetite suppression you get from starving (you know the feeling where you're too hungry to be hungry anymore). This was a "holy crap all I've had today is a protein shake and a bag of peanuts and it's 9 oclock so I guess I should eat something."

    My mood felt fantastic too. It's like the same mood leveling effect of low-carb dieting without the low-carb (although I'm certainly not going to overdo the carbs).

    My only real problem with the stuff? The potential for severely lowered testosterone.

    Studies on healthy men showed as much as a 60% drop in test. In that same study LH did not change and DHEA-S went up tons... Which leads me to believe then that metformin works by inhibiting the liver's ability to create the enzymes needed to convert precursors to testosterone (like 5-ar). It would only make sense as one of the effects from glucophage is inhibited gluceonogenesis from the liver. I imagine something else is being inhibited only because LH DOESNT CHANGE and DHEA GOES WAY UP.

    Metformin also lowers b12 absorption which I thought might have something to do with it, some connection. Not so much, as b12 doesnt seem to effect testosterone.




    So my question would be, other than just saving metformin for cycles where you're using test as a base anyways, is there any way to counteract this problem?

    I'm probably going to run this for a few weeks and see what it does to my drive. I've read quite a few people who like it, people who would be pissed if it killed their test levels and they seemed to like it so I'm hopeful that it can be done. But my biggest concern is sex drive. I've been seeing someone new and the last thing I really want to try and explain is why I'm just not turned on.

    If the effects of metformin actually pan out into real-life results on my physique I could live with a few months of low testosterone, honestly the appetite reduction was that awesome.


  2. #2
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Here's something that says

    "Metformin inhibits hepatic glucose production thereby reducing the androgen production of theca cells."

    http://books.google.com/books?id=7SVFDF0_v...5&ct=result


    What's the deal?

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Metformin also increases sex hormone binding globulin SHBG, binding up your free test and making it inactive.

    The whole test metformin issue really sucks because I too think metformin is a great drug and I also get the appetite reduction and mood boost from it. I have about six boxes of the stuff (purchased before I was educated on the test connection), if anyone wants them they are indian made metformin 500 SR still in the boxes and shrinkwrapped together, expiration date is like 2010.

    I don't think there is a way to undue the effects.

    There is a potentially bright side. The test side effects don't effect everyone. I know some people who got before and after labs and their test and free test levels were hardly affected. So if I were you I would get your test levels taken then start Met and get levels a few months later and see what the effects on you are... who knows you might be lucky. Only you need to keep all other supps and drugs the same for this time (obviously). I might do this at some point in the future.

  4. #4
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    from what I've read, and from what little I understand my intuition is telling me this. Metformin, used at fairly high dosing and incorporated with a low calorie diet mimics some kind of starvation response. The kind of starvation response that makes the body shut down androgen production. If someone ate made sure to keep protein intake high and used exercise as the main method of caloric restriction then perhaps this side is avoided.

    Plus I plan on taking only 425-850mg a day which is half to a third the dose that most people take (1600-2000mg a day).

    SHBG is increased during metformin use. Well SHBG is also increased during hypocaloric states. Low protein consumption also triggers this. I wonder how many of the men on metformin worked out regularly and ate bodyweight protein amounts?

    In the interim I'm going to just take this until I start feeling like it's having an effect on my libido, which is pretty sensitive to changes so it shouldn't be all that hard. I might as well order some divanex(singing nettle) to take in order to decrease test binding to shbg.


  5. #5
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Some of you may be wondering why I don't harp on the decreased test as a concern for muscle loss.

    "Conclusion: This study demonstrates a significant anabolic effect on muscle protein with metformin and a modest response with insulin. Findings also suggest that metformin and insulin may work synergistically to further improve muscle protein kinetics."

    http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17248783


  6. #6
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    given what we know about amp-k and it's effect on protein synthesis this would seem to be a problem, but I'm wondering what all this means in an athletic person.

  7. #7
    Senior Member WeightOfWords's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    1,387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    DS Activate?
    Ad pondus omnium.
    Visit my log, and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

    I don't wear a seat belt because it chafes my pierced nipples -FMF

    What are you? My steroid accountant? - Ras

    Half of this board is dedicated to steroid use; if you can get away with shaving every 3-4 days, without looking like a homeless person, then you are in dire need of a tren cycle. I don't even use juice, and I still need a secondary shave when I go on a post-work date....
    - Section8

    My Shit List:
    Obama
    Apple Products/Apple (I have an iphone)
    Fags (NOT homosexuals, FAGS)

  8. #8
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    or bulk nettle. Bottom line though I don't think that's enough to fill the tank as total test went down too. But I really get the feeling there's a reason why some men are affected and others aren't, besides just a quirk.

    I just need 100k+ in grant money to fund the research!

  9. #9
    Senior Member WeightOfWords's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    1,387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This may not be an option for you personally, but wouldn't Test En + Winstrol take care of the downsides to Metformin?
    Ad pondus omnium.
    Visit my log, and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

    I don't wear a seat belt because it chafes my pierced nipples -FMF

    What are you? My steroid accountant? - Ras

    Half of this board is dedicated to steroid use; if you can get away with shaving every 3-4 days, without looking like a homeless person, then you are in dire need of a tren cycle. I don't even use juice, and I still need a secondary shave when I go on a post-work date....
    - Section8

    My Shit List:
    Obama
    Apple Products/Apple (I have an iphone)
    Fags (NOT homosexuals, FAGS)

  10. #10
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WeightOfWords @ Oct 14 2008, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This may not be an option for you personally, but wouldn't Test En + Winstrol take care of the downsides to Metformin?</div>


    it certainly would be but I'm trying to avoid any hormones at this point. trying to find a gentle recomposition.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    The most civil realm of HM ER II
    Posts
    4,299
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eclypz @ Oct 14 2008, 07:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>or bulk nettle. Bottom line though I don't think that's enough to fill the tank as total test went down too. But I really get the feeling there's a reason why some men are affected and others aren't, besides just a quirk.

    I just need 100k+ in grant money to fund the research!</div>

    IIRC there are other agents in nettle which may have opposing actions to those desired.
    J

  12. #12
    Senior Member Proton Soup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    688
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Diabetes Care. 2000 Sep;23(9):1227-31.Click here to read Links
    Increased intake of calcium reverses vitamin B12 malabsorption induced by metformin.
    Bauman WA, Shaw S, Jayatilleke E, Spungen AM, Herbert V.

    Department of Medicine, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, USA. [email protected]

    OBJECTIVE: Of patients who are prescribed metformin, 10-30% have evidence of reduced vitamin B12 absorption. B12-intrinsic factor complex uptake by ileal cell surface receptors is known to be a process dependent on calcium availability Metformin affects calcium-dependent membrane action. The objective of this study was to determine the magnitude and mechanism of the reduction in serum vitamin B12 after metformin administration. RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: A comparative study design was employed using 2 groups (metformin and control). A total of 21 patients with type 2 diabetes received sulfonylurea therapy; 14 of these 21 patients were switched to metformin. Monthly serum total vitamin B12 measurements and holotranscobalamin (holoTCII) (B12-TCII) were performed. After 3 months of metformin therapy, oral calcium supplementation was administered. RESULTS: Serial serum vitamin B12 determinations revealed a similar decline in vitamin B12 and holoTCII. Oral calcium supplementation reversed the metformin-induced serum holoTCII depression. CONCLUSIONS: Patients receiving metformin have diminished B12 absorption and low serum total vitamin B12 and TCII-B12 levels because of a calcium-dependent ileal membrane antagonism, an effect reversed with supplemental calcium.

    PMID: 10977010 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

  13. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    B-12 is not as big an issue, just supplement with B-12. Sublingual is even more efficient, and sublingual Methyl B-12 is even better.

  14. #14
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Josh @ Oct 14 2008, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>IIRC there are other agents in nettle which may have opposing actions to those desired.
    J</div>


    yeah it's also a 5ar inhibitor which prolly wouldn't be good.

  15. #15
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    So is there any research out there that shows how specifically met reduces test in men?I'd think there'd be some research into this but it's tough to search for without getting just PCOS research.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    The most civil realm of HM ER II
    Posts
    4,299
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    OT - have you noticed any GI distress. A lad I know who ran metformin a few years back quit because of bad guts.

    J

  17. #17
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Josh @ Oct 15 2008, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>OT - have you noticed any GI distress. A lad I know who ran metformin a few years back quit because of bad guts.

    J</div>


    I'm only taking 425mg twice a day so it's a pretty low dose but I've been pretty pleased to note very little gi disturbance.

  18. #18
    Senior Member eclypz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,242
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    quick update.

    I was taking 850mg a day split in two for about two weeks. I felt great. Mentally like I was keto, physically like every gram of carb I was eating was either disapating as heat or getting stuffed into my muscles. It has been awesome.

    And then my test dropped. Now, I've been pretty stressed lately as well but there was a night and day difference all of a sudden about two weeks in. I quit taking it and have noticed slowly my drive coming back. I will probably try again here in a while but at lower doses and more infrequently - like just on the weekend or soemthing.

    NOTEWORTHY: While I haven't taken any for about four days now I still feel physically improved. It's almost as if the two weeks of insulin normalization has had long lasting effects. My pumps are fuller, my appetite more even and I don't get sleepy if I eat starches like I did before. I imagine continued bouts with starches would undo this.


  19. #19
    Senior Member WeightOfWords's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    1,387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sounds like a win-win-win on a test + winstrol/proviron cycle though.
    Ad pondus omnium.
    Visit my log, and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

    I don't wear a seat belt because it chafes my pierced nipples -FMF

    What are you? My steroid accountant? - Ras

    Half of this board is dedicated to steroid use; if you can get away with shaving every 3-4 days, without looking like a homeless person, then you are in dire need of a tren cycle. I don't even use juice, and I still need a secondary shave when I go on a post-work date....
    - Section8

    My Shit List:
    Obama
    Apple Products/Apple (I have an iphone)
    Fags (NOT homosexuals, FAGS)

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    851
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eclypz @ Oct 15 2008, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So is there any research out there that shows how specifically met reduces test in men?I'd think there'd be some research into this but it's tough to search for without getting just PCOS research.</div>



    Saudi Med J. 2002 Aug;23(8):934-7.

    Effects of short term metformin administration on androgens in normal men.


    Shegem NS, Nasir AM, Jbour AK, Batieha AM, El-Khateeb MS, Ajlouni KM.

    National Center for Diabetes Endocrinology and Genetics, Jordan University Hospital, Amman, Jordan.

    OBJECTIVE: To study the effect of metformin on androgens in normal men. METHODS: A total of 12 healthy males volunteered to participate in the study. A blood sample was obtained from each of them and analyzed for the following: Testosterone (total and free), sex hormone binding globulin dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle stimulating hormone. In addition, each participant was subjected to a glucose tolerance test and his insulin level was measured. Metformin 850 mg twice daily for 2-weeks was given to each subject after which the above tests were repeated. A paired t-test was used to assess the statistical significance of any observed differences before and after metformin. RESULTS: After metformin administration, there was a significant reduction in serum level of total testosterone (p=0.0001), free testosterone (P=0.002), and 17 hydroxyprogesterone (p=0.0001). There was also a significant increase in serum level of sex hormone binding globulin (p=0.009) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (P=0.0008). Serum levels of luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone showed no significant changes. Similarly, there were no changes in fasting plasma glucose, fasting serum insulin, weight, or blood pressure. CONCLUSION: Metformin administration was associated with a reduction in total testosterone, free testosterone, and 17-hydroxyprogesterone and an increase in sex hormone binding globulin and dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate in normal males.





    <span style="color:#C0C0C0">.</span>

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Low TEST... I think it was the Metformin. Please help
    By terresw in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: July 22nd, 2009, 09:20 PM
  2. Caloric intake effect on testosterone levels
    By krazyj in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: December 27th, 2008, 02:04 AM
  3. Water Retention is a direct effect of Testosterone.
    By oswaldosalcedo in forum Steroids, Prohormones, Peptides Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: February 24th, 2007, 04:28 PM
  4. Metformin+lipoderm
    By x_muscle in forum Supplements Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: July 19th, 2004, 10:33 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •