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  1. #1
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    Lots of people in bodybuilding subscribe to the 'more is better' philosophy for just about anything, protein included.



    An intake of 1.5-2g/pound of bodyweight is not uncommon to see thrown around on many boards. And yet, there is pretty good data that your gut uptake, even of whey, is limited to about 10g/hour or so and is less than this for other proteins. Meaning that if you are consuming more than 250g of protein, you are flushing the excess down the crapper...



    A Review of Issues of Dietary Protein Intake in Humans



    Considerable debate has taken place over the safety and validity of increased protein intakes for both weight control and muscle synthesis. The advice to consume diets high in protein by some health professionals, media and popular diet books is given despite a lack of scientific data on the safety of increasing protein consumption. The key issues are the rate at which the gastrointestinal tract can absorb amino acids from dietary proteins (1.3 to 10 g/h) and the liver's capacity to deaminate proteins and produce urea for excretion of excess nitrogen. The accepted level of protein requirement of 0.8g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1 is based on structural requirements and ignores the use of protein for energy metabolism. High protein diets on the other hand advocate excessive levels of protein intake on the order of 200 to 400 g/d, which can equate to levels of approximately 5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1, which may exceed the liver?s capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea. Dangers of excessive protein, defined as when protein constitutes > 35% of total energy intake, include hyperaminoacidemia, hyperammonemia, hyperinsulinemia nausea, diarrhea, and even death (the ?rabbit starvation syndrome?). The three different measures of defining protein intake, which should be viewed together are: absolute intake (g/d), intake related to body weight (g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1) and intake as a fraction of total energy (percent energy). A suggested maximum protein intake based on bodily needs, weight control evidence, and avoiding protein toxicity would be approximately of 25% of energy requirements at approximately 2 to 2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1, corresponding to 176 g protein per day for an 80 kg individual on a 12,000kJ/d diet. This is well below the theoretical maximum safe intake range for an 80 kg person (285 to 365 g/d).



    Amino acid catabolism must occur in a way that does not elevate blood ammonia (26). Catabolism of amino acids occurs in the liver, which contains the urea cycle (26), however the rate of conversion of amino acid derived ammonia to urea is limited. Rudman et al. (27)



    Early findings suggest that rapidly absorbed proteins such as free amino acids and WP, transiently and moderately inhibit protein breakdown (39, 53), yet stimulate protein synthesis by 68% [using nonoxidative leucine disposal (NOLD) as an index of protein synthesis] (54). Casein protein has been shown to inhibit protein breakdown by 30% for a 7-h postprandial period, and only slightly increase protein synthesis (38, 54). Rapidly absorbed amino acids despite stimulating greater protein synthesis, also stimulate greater amino acid oxidation, and hence results in a lower net protein gain, than slowly absorbed protein (54). Leucine balance, a measurable endpoint for protein balance, is indicated in Figure 1, which shows slowly absorbed amino acids (~ 6 to 7 g/h), such as CAS and 2.3 g of WP repeatedly taken orally every 20 min (RPT-WP), provide significantly better protein balance than rapidly absorbed amino acids (39, 54).



    The misconception in the fitness and sports industries is that rapidly absorbed protein, such as WP and AA promote better protein anabolism. As the graph shows, slowly absorbed protein such as CAS and small amounts of WP (RPT-WP) provide four and nine times more protein synthesis than WP.



    This "slow" and "fast" protein concept provides some clearer evidence that although human physiology may allow for rapid and increased absorption rate of amino acids, as in the case of WP (8 to 10 g/h), this fast absorption is not strongly correlated with a ?maximal protein balance,? as incorrectly interpreted by fitness enthusiasts, athletes, and bodybuilders.



    Using the findings of amino acid absorption rates shown in Table 2 (using leucine balance as a measurable endpoint for protein balance), a maximal amino acid intake measured by the inhibition of proteolysis and increase in postprandial protein gain, may only be ~ 6 to 7 g/h (as described by RPT-WP, and casein) (38), which corresponds to a maximal protein intake of 144 to 168 g/d.



    The rate of amino acid absorption from protein is quite slow (~ 5 to 8 g/h, from Table 2) when compared to that of other macronutrients, with fatty acids at ~ 0.175 g ? kg-1 ? h-1 (~ 14 g/h) (55) and glucose 60 to 100 g/h (0.8 to 1.2 g carbohydrate ? kg-1 ? h-1) for an 80 kg individual (56). From our earlier calculations elucidating the maximal amounts of protein intake from MRUS, an 80 kg subject could theoretically tolerate up to 301 to 365 g of protein per day, but this would require an absorption rate of 12.5 to 15 g/h, an unlikely level given the results of the studies reported above.



    The consumption of large amounts of protein by athletes and bodybuilders is not a new practice (13). Recent evidence suggests that increased protein intakes for endurance and strength-trained athletes can increase strength and recovery from exercise (14, 80, 81). In healthy adult men consuming small frequent meals providing protein at 2.5 g ? kg-1 ? d-1, there was a decreased protein breakdown, and increased protein synthesis of up to 63%, compared with intakes of 1g ? kg-1 ? d-1 (16). Subjects receiving 1g ? kg-1 ? d-1 underwent muscle protein breakdown with less evident changes in muscle protein synthesis. Some evidence suggests, however, that a high protein diet increases leucine oxidation (82, 83), while other data demonstrate that the slower digestion rate of protein (38, 54), and the timing of protein ingestion (with resistance training) (84) promote muscle protein synthesis.



    Absorption rates of amino acids from the gut can vary from 1.4 g/h for raw egg white to 8 to 10 g/h for whey protein isolate. Slowly absorbed amino acids such as casein (~ 6 g/h) and repeated small doses of whey protein (2.9 g per 20 min, totaling ~ 7 g/h) promote leucine balance, a marker of protein balance, superior to that of a single dose of 30 g of whey protein or free amino acids which are both rapidly absorbed (8 to 10 g/h), and enhance amino acid oxidation. This gives us an initial understanding that although higher protein intakes are physiologically possible, and tolerable by the human body, they may not be functionally optimal in terms of building and preserving body protein. The general, although incorrect consensus among athletes and bodybuilders, is that rapid protein absorption corresponds to greater muscle building.



    From the limited data available on amino acid absorption rates, and the physiological parameters of urea synthesis, the maximal safe protein intakes for humans have been estimated at ~ 285 g/d for an 80 kg male. It is not the intention of this article, however, to promote the consumption of large amounts of protein, but rather to prompt an investigation into what are the parameters of human amino acid kinetics. In the face of the rising tide of obesity in the Western world where energy consumption overrides energy expenditure, a more prudent and practical approach, which may still provide favorable outcomes, is a 25% protein energy diet, which would provide 118 g protein on an 8000 kJ/d diet at 1.5 g ? kg-1 ? d-1 for an 80 kg individual (Table 2).



    Little data exists on the comprehensive metabolic effects of large amounts of dietary protein in the order of 300 to 400 g/d. Intakes of this magnitude would result in some degree of prolonged hyperaminoacidemia, hyperammonemia, hyperinsulinemia, and hyperglucagonemia, and some conversion to fat, but the metabolic and physiological consequences of such states are currently unknown. The upper limit of protein intake is widely debated, with many experts advocating levels up to 2.0 g ? kg-1 ? d-1 being quite safe (102, 117, 118) and that renal considerations are not an issue at this level in individuals with normal renal function.



    Original source

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jay Black's Avatar
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    Very interesting.
    Prophet of the Day of Rockening...The Arockalypse!

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frangible @ Sep 2 2009, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If the music itself doesn't elevate your testosterone levels, you clearly do not have a Jay Black approved band.</div>

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    195g counting all sources at around 150--jus' sayin.



    good read Benson, but I hate looking at kilojoules, I can take the kilograms, but kilojoules...bleh



    for everyone else's use:



    the 12,000 kJ diet comes out to about 2868kcal

    the 8,000 kJ comes out to about 1912kcal



    Edit: God do I ever bitch, that was barely even pertinent

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    Can you fix the link? Not working...

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    Senior Member Stay Puft's Avatar
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    Firstly, great find Ben, this is a good read.



    Secondly, is anyone that surprised with this? I've been advocating less is more for a while now in my personal interactions, particularly among endos. To much excess-related lore in the BB world has created too many fat BBers.

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    Senior Member joetelli's Avatar
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    I take in about 250-270g, I'm on the anabolic diet so my protein intake is pretty high especially only being 160lbs.

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    Senior Member Jinx Me's Avatar
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    The misnomer that you need more protein or you'll waste away is a great way to justify eating more, and sabotage a diet.



    That said, protein is a less efficient fuel than carbs. Eating more protein isn't necessarily good because you need more protein, but because it can displace carbs, which can make staying lean (and healthy, as Benson pointed out in a thread citing research about the health benefits of lower carb diets) easier.
    Kicking ass is my comfort food

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    Exactly.

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    Senior Member joetelli's Avatar
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    lets say you were to eat only protein, no fat no carbs, wouldn't your body turn protein into a carbohydrate?

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    Yes.

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    Senior Member Proton Soup's Avatar
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    blah, didn't read it all, but if absorption is limited, then consumption is therefore also self-limiting, making it impossible to eat too much.



    and as for rabbit starvation, i thought it had to do with a lack of fat in rabbit flesh, not an overconsumption of protein. who will die faster, a fat man on a fast, or a fat man eating only rabbit muscle? is he really going to suffer 'rabbit starvation' before he burns off all his own fat reserves?

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    Looks like getting high might slow things down a little -- maybe a positive thing, WRT the comments on small bits of whey over time being better than a bolus dose, which increased oxidation a bunch...



    Damn high fat rat studies...

    The role of endocannabinoids in the regulation of gastric emptying: alterations in mice fed a high-fat diet.

    Di Marzo V, Capasso R, Matias I, Aviello G, Petrosino S, Borrelli F, Romano B, Orlando P, Capasso F, Izzo AA.



    1Endocannabinoid Research Group, Institute of Biomolecular Chemistry, National Research Council, Pozzuoli, Naples, Italy.



    Background and purpose:Endocannabinoids (via cannabinoid CB(1) receptor activation) are physiological regulators of intestinal motility and food intake. However, their role in the regulation of gastric emptying is largely unexplored. The purpose of the present study was to investigate the involvement of the endocannabinoid system in the regulation of gastric emptying in mice fed either a standard diet (STD) or a high-fat diet (HFD) for 14 weeks.Experimental approach:Gastric emptying was evaluated by measuring the amount of phenol red recovered in the stomach after oral challenge; CB(1) expression was analysed by quantitative reverse transcription-PCR; endocannabinoid (anandamide and 2-arachidonoyl glycerol) levels were measured by liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry.Key results:Gastric emptying was reduced by anandamide, an effect counteracted by the CB(1) receptor antagonist rimonabant, but not by the CB(2) receptor antagonist SR144528 or by the transient receptor potential vanilloid type 1 (TRPV1) antagonist 5'-iodoresiniferatoxin. The fatty acid amide hydrolase (FAAH) inhibitor N-arachidonoyl-5-hydroxytryptamine (but not the anandamide uptake inhibitor OMDM-2) reduced gastric emptying in a way partly reduced by rimonabant. Compared to STD mice, HFD mice exhibited significantly higher body weight and fasting glucose levels, delayed gastric emptying and lower anandamide and CB(1) mRNA levels. N-arachidonoylserotonin (but not rimonabant) affected gastric emptying more efficaciously in HFD than STD mice.Conclusions and implications:Gastric emptying is physiologically regulated by the endocannabinoid system, which is downregulated following a HFD leading to overweight.British Journal of Pharmacology advance online publication, 28 January 2008; doi:10.1038/sj.bjp.0707682.



    PMID: 18223666 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]



    Edited to fix double post

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    interesting data on the absorption rates, that's 'useful' to know.

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    I also found this part to be interesting as well:



    The misconception in the fitness and sports industries is that rapidly absorbed protein, such as WP and AA promote better protein anabolism. As the graph shows, slowly absorbed protein such as CAS and small amounts of WP (RPT-WP) provide four and nine times more protein synthesis than WP.

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    Senior Member Archaic's Avatar
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    I'm 6'3" 260lbs, at 16% bodyfat. I train primarily for strength with a secondary bodybuilding emphasis. I have competed in strongman, and play rugby therefore I have a significant cardio component to my training.



    I usually eat around 150gm protein when either growing or dieting. I used to prescribe to the 'more is better' mentality of protein but all that got me was a depleted wallet (from buying so much chicken).



    I notice no difference in my recovery, my strength gain, or my bodycomp between 150gm protein/day and 300gm protein/day. Perhaps AAS are a factor.
    Health is a divine gift and the care of the body is a sacred duty, to neglect which is to sin. Whilst this may be termed a sin of omission, it is also true that a great deal of the sins of commission are due to an unhealthy state of body and mind.
    For instance, a man who keeps his body in good condition, and his system in good tone, will feel less desire for intoxicating liquor, and less effect from what he does take, than the man who is careless about his body. There can be no doubt, either that one of the greatest elements in making a pure mind and lofty imagination, is a pure, healthy body.

    - The Gospel of Strength (according to Sandow)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimbo' post='459016' date='Feb 18 2008, 12:25 PM
    I also found this part to be interesting as well:


    I have found that a combination of whey + whole milk works very nicely....and it makes shakes taste awesome

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    Senior Member Archaic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimbo' post='459016' date='Feb 18 2008, 10:25 AM
    I also found this part to be interesting as well:

    The misconception in the fitness and sports industries is that rapidly absorbed protein, such as WP and AA promote better protein anabolism. As the graph shows, slowly absorbed protein such as CAS and small amounts of WP (RPT-WP) provide four and nine times more protein synthesis than WP.





    If you're eating 6 times a day, which most of us do, you'll have continued anabolism whether you choose whey or casein.

    IE./If you were eating one meal post workout and not another one again 3 hours later then of course casein would be better, but the spike of AAs delivered by whey has to be beneficial immediately post workout as long as you follow up with another meal 3 hours later.



    I would choose whey post workout, and casein pre-bed.



    But generally speaking, I believe the primary reason for whey being more popular is due to the powders of whey being more palatable than caseins d/t the thick texture and limited mixability.
    Health is a divine gift and the care of the body is a sacred duty, to neglect which is to sin. Whilst this may be termed a sin of omission, it is also true that a great deal of the sins of commission are due to an unhealthy state of body and mind.
    For instance, a man who keeps his body in good condition, and his system in good tone, will feel less desire for intoxicating liquor, and less effect from what he does take, than the man who is careless about his body. There can be no doubt, either that one of the greatest elements in making a pure mind and lofty imagination, is a pure, healthy body.

    - The Gospel of Strength (according to Sandow)

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    my only grumble about this way of thinking is you have to replace the calories from somewhere. Many people's metabolisms don't deal with CHO very well. No matter what form of CHO I eat I will gain weight on it. Period. And not the good kind. If I keep CHO cyclic as I do now and keep fats low-moderate and protein a little higher I am able to eat more (volume wise) per day and stay leaner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzman' post='459069' date='Feb 18 2008, 02:36 PM
    I have found that a combination of whey + whole milk works very nicely....and it makes shakes taste awesome


    I go one better....I use 8oz of Hood Calorie Countdown milk...creamy shakes and minimal carbs...

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    unfortunately, then I would have to add some lactaid

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